Veg-DC Patriot Acts Parts 1 and 2 + SciVeg

For simplicity's sake, I've combined past posts about Veg-DC List Owners behavior below, in ascending chronological order:

[Originally posted on 09/29/05]:
Veg-DC Patriot Act Part 01
One of the oldest and most interesting online veg communities is currently in lock-down. The Veg-DC List Owner (well, Administrator) decided to bring on a co-owner, and they started changing stuff. When List Members suggested that there be open discussion on these matters, a polite List Member was removed from the community without any notification to the List...

After an gentle post suggesting that group discussion might be beneficial (praised by one "List Owner" and slammed by the other), Carrie's gone... Still no explanation to the List as to "why?" Someone then posted correspondence detailing this sad state of affairs,
and, of course, was promptly chastised by the List Owners, false accusations made, gnashing of teeth, pointing of fingers, but, still,
no explanations.

Then, in a bizarre move, one "Owner" called for a poll: "if you're afraid to post to the List I own and can ban you from without accounting to or telling anyone, please feel free to send me an e-mail..."

Anyway, the following superbly written e-mail, among many, was sent to me recently. It's posted HERE in the hopes that Veg-DC List Members will be able to read, without distortion, further evidence of what's really going on, and it's impact on the Veg-DC community.
More about this all later...

[Originally posted on 09/30/05]:

The Truth About Sci-Veg

Some day I'll tell my part of the story about the infamous & defunct "Sci-Veg" list in the early 1990's (and others who helped me challenge a bully). Recent selective truth and generalizations give false impressions, and makes incorrect assumptions about the present.

The Sci-Veg moderator (Carl Phillips) was so bad that the List ended in controversy, archives erased. Perhaps the focus should be, instead, on the way and why Carrie Smith was removed from Veg-DC in 2005. Oh, and despite groundless accusations, I did not write that bounced e-mail.....& List Members: be careful with your Signature Blocks! The Veg-DC List Owners will threaten you if they don't like your Sigs.

[Originally posted on: 10/04/05]:

Veg-DC Patriot Act Part 02
Wow... I've been threatened with "unsubscription" to the Veg-DC List for, get this, "sarcastic" personal Signature Blocks (at the end of e-mails posted). A List Owner believes he has authority over these (his own is a weak irony he's used for years).& I asked him to identify untruths in the Sigs I used (there are none), what I'm being accused of (he wasn't specific), and how he has authority over same.
I also advised the L.O. that any correspondence would not necessarily be private, as I want a record of all this.& He's a tendency to respond to quickly via e-mail and I wanted to slow him down in the hope that he'd think a bit more carefully about what he writes.

Quotes used in my Signature Blocks: (note: these were in signature blocks and not the body of the posts, which were strictly on topic):

"Liberty is meaningless where the right to utter one’s thoughts and opinions has ceased to exist. That, of all rights, is the dread of tyrants.& It is the right which they first of all strike down. They know its power. Thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers, founded in injustice and wrong, are sure to tremble, if men are allowed to reason… Equally clear is the right to hear. To suppress free speech is a double wrong. It violates the rights of the hearer as well as those of the speaker."
--- Frederick Douglass [In famous plea for free speech in Boston 1860. American abolitionist, author, orator (1817-1895)]

and in a following post:

"Fascism is not defined by the number of its victims, but by the way it kills them." --- Jean-Paul Sartre

"Democracy is the opposite of totalitarianism, communism, fascism, or mobocracy." --- Frank Lloyd Wright

It's indeed, quite ironic, that located in the Geographical Center of American Democracy, the Veg-DC List is (as indicated quite clearly by it's administrators) not a democracy.
Veg-DC Updates 1 & 2
Wow... an amazing number of people have sent me e-mails of support. My thanks to all of you! A lot's happened... Didn't plan to blog about this today, but with so much incoming, it's easier to post this quick response. My suggestions to our List

• Be politely skeptical of what you are told --- apparently some get confused and, presumably, unintentionally distort what's really
been written or posted by me.

• If so inclined, re-read my posts to the List the past 2-3 wks., see if I've violated the Charter, and/or read my Veg-DC-related blog posts (if something's inaccurate, let me know).

• Give the List Owners feedback --- many of you are afraid to give them opinion. We can only hope that they will be open and willing to listen (but do remember the 1st suggestion above).

Anyway, I haven't yet read all notes from them (may take a day or more), and in deference to this, won't comment here or on the List about what's happened, or happening, until I digest it all.

It might take a little time (very busy period for me)... but don't worry, I'm fine... just disappointed in actions and allegations.

Best to all.... (10/09/05)

10/10/05 UPDATE:
A note from a List Owner got through to my "In box"......despite my automatic filters putting incoming Veg-DC stuff into a seperate folder for later review (can't deal with this all 24/7). Here's what I can say for now. Many pieces of her e-mail are worth later comment, when/should it be appropriate, but I was particularly surprised by one bit (keep in mind I haven't checked my Veg-DC "in boxes" for since Saturday morning and can't for another day or two... so I'm taking her at her word below).

Disclaimer:& I advised both List Owners last week, politely, that any e-mail sent to me will be considered "non-private."
Here's the excerpt from the note:

"Then the new subscribers started showing up denouncing the list adminstrators on their first post. This is a dishonorable way of speaking out. For obvious reasons, they are not taken seriously."

Personally, I don't see what's "dishonorable" about people providing feedback and opinion. If people feel that they must hide their identities from the List Administrators, subscribing anew, isn't that a big clue? Guess people are concerned. Recent decisions by List Mgmt. may have given Members a reason to suspect their judgement, fairness, stability, or openess. But, I saw the first sign of reasoning creeping into the "conversation." She acknowledged that I might not have done the things I've been accused (italics are mine):

"...then you obviously instigated them. Either way, it's very inappropriate list behavior."

Wow... what stunning logic. Since my posts to the List have been on-topic for weeks, then the only reasons to remove me would have been the L.O.'s not liking my blog (and still unable to tell me what's inaccurate herein), or the suspicion that I "instigated" something. Yet, I followed their requests (not posting more then once on the "footer controversy, not using "sarcastic" Sig Blocks, and temporarily not using my blog URL in my Sig Block...). Isn't it fascinating that they still can't provide us with a reason (or reasoning)? And when they think they are, it's some unsubstantiated vague or generalized description. One more: when I asked why the other List Owner praised Carrie's post, when she slammed it and removed her from the List (italics are mine):

"Steve made the error of trying to be nice to her."

Well... what can I say to that? Speaks for itself.

Ironic, too, that the only person on the List who complained about that post was her. Lists are, to a large degree, self-regulating. The experienced and wise List Owners get a "feel" for what's going on by the degree and level of feedback from the group's posts. Green List Owners (and we've seen this recently) tend to feel they must post something back to just about every post made, even it's just one word (like, "cool") and tend to hold a tight leash. Controlling and not guiding --- big difference.

If the post in question isn't asking a particular question nor being especially disagreeable, there's most likely little reason for the smart L.O. to comment under normal circumstances (unless adding to the discussion). If List Members believe that someone's post is inappropriate, believe me, they usually let the List know (unless the List Owners are too heavyhanded and trust is lost...). In a sense, it's a dynamic ongoing "polling" or "pulse-taking." That the day before I was removed (or thereabouts), a List Member was puzzled as to why the "controversy" was brought up by a List Owner. He thought it was all over with. This clearly shows that, from the List Community's perspective, nothing unusual or "disruptive" was going on. It demonstrates that the Veg-DC List Owners had lost touch with "list reality." Their posts were continually out of the daily context of the List Environment. It was just as I've maintained throughout, from the List's p.o.v., I'd done nothing wrong.

...and the L.O.'s seem to lack the intestinal fortitude to own up to their mistakes. Guess they are afraid to appear "nice." Anyway, more later... I've still got e-mails from the L.O.'s and List Posts to catch up on (may take days) before deciding what I can post to the List and blog about (including the text of the compromise I offered the L.O.'s last Friday).

BTW: it's wonderful to see so many Veg-DC List Members accessing this blog daily, though. Rest assured, the truth will continue to be available here. Best to all... (and again, thanks for all those e-mails!)


Anonymous tester said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11/28/2005 7:18 PM  
Anonymous tester2 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11/28/2005 7:24 PM  
Anonymous SuzyQ said...

I am also on the vegdc list. I can not believe what happened. What can we do? The people in charge of the list have gone overboard with power. I want to send a letter to the list about it all. If I do this, will they remove me too?

11/28/2005 8:32 PM  
Anonymous Zathros said...

I read your list post about Steve threatening you because you had your blog address in your posts. Who does he think he is? John Ashcroft?

11/28/2005 8:34 PM  
Anonymous Mary said...

Thank you that you are blogging the facts. The moderators flaming about was deceitful.

Poor Carrie. I read her note. She was so hurt. Why was no one upset with her last post but you know who.

So dumb.

11/28/2005 8:46 PM  
Anonymous Chewbecca_Cravin said...


We are the [expletive deleted] "Lords of the List" (L.O.L.) and can do whatever the [expletive deleted] we want. You should [anatomically impossible expletives deleted].

We are not obligated to answer any [gross expletives deleted] questions, nor any [more expletives deleted] List member [expletive deleted] concerns. You are wasting our royal [expletive deleted] precious [really foul expletive deleted] time. We've a lot of [not-so-foul expletive deleted] decisions to make on so many [kinda foul expletive deleted] List issues on an hourly basis for the [minor expletive deleted] Veg-DC List.

We [forceful expletive deleted] rule. All final [expletive deleted] decisions are [misspelled expletive deleted] final. Anyone [suggestive expletive deleted] questioning any of them is, like, [cute expletive deleted] immature, dude. [residual and after-shock expletives deleted].

Tired. Have to go. Need more meds.

Peace, warmest regards, and best wishes,

Chewbecca :-) (chewbecca@wasted.org)

Love your blog!!

11/29/2005 9:44 AM  
Anonymous Whizzie Ashcroft said...

How DARE you disagree with the List Mistress. You must know from being on the List for 9 years that she's always correct. That's why I changed my position on Carrie's post, which I originally praised. I learned later that I (and all the List Members) were wrong by not expressedly slamming Carrie's words.

Here's the last and most important paragraph of her vile post:

"On the contrary to what a contender said to the notion of the necessity for consultation/discussion as futile for perceived small or inconsequential matters, consultation fosters unity not divisiveness if the goal is to establish a consensus. We need to learn the art of consultation so that we are detached from the outcome, and that comes with time when every participant knows that the outcome will be what's best for the group and the greater good. Peace." --- Carrie Smith (unsubscribed Veg-DC List Member)"

How awful! Sure, on the surface it seems great, nice polite piece, spiritual, accomodating, and everyone on the List thought it was okay (except for my Mistress).

But once I found out about the private disagreements she had with my List Mistress several weeks ago (prior to the post), and after much training, I had a profound revelation and could read beyond the text pixels, the spiritual words, and truly see how foul, subversive, cryptographic, and dangerous those words were to the integrity of the Veg-DC List community. God forbid she should post again!

Can't you see the incredible danger in allowing the same person who posted that paragraph above to post again? The deep deception hidden within the nice words?

Our List Mistress has protected us from ruin. Nothing like that has been posted before in 9 years and it would have taken us all down.

We should never judge a List Post by its appearance. The List Owners, only, could know more private stuff that will really matters, from months ago, and they have a sworned duty to protect the innocent List Members. So, if they bounce someone without explanation they've good reason. You shouldn't ask "why?" 'cause it's none of your business.

I repented. I'm still repenting. Oh gawd, how often I have to repent... I now understand all the evil that Carrie's post contained. Praise the List Mistress! (...can I stop repenting now?)

But, Carrie deserved the punishment that the List Mistress dealt so swiftly without thinking. Her Royalty has saved us all. We could have been disturbed and disrupted by additional Carrie Posts. We owe the List Mistress tribute for her profound compassion by removing Carrie for the List for no rational reason at all to protect us all from something that hasn't been explained.

And if you continue to blog about Veg-DC I will banish you from Veg-DC a second or third time.

You have been warned.

Fundamentally, Little Whizzie

Still working on letting you know where your Veg-DC blog posts are incorrect. Yeah, it's been a several weeks now, but all this List management takes so much time. You wouldn't believe all the decisions we have to make every day. I'm sure you understand. We're also debating what font, font size, and font format is appropriate for all posts. It's tough.

Gotta guard against Satan wherever you can...

Little Whizzie Ashcroft Whizzie@beforewizdum.com

11/29/2005 11:31 AM  
Anonymous ebellious listmember said...

Why don't you start a new list? Thanks for revealing the TRUTH about those... listowners at veg-dc. rebellious listmember vegwell@gmail.com

11/29/2005 1:02 PM  
Anonymous ReluctantVeg said...

Can't believe what they did to Carrie. I'm on the List and it's like they are proud or something.

Who cares what she might have written off List? What has that got to do with the public postings?

I'm glad you posted these. The Veg-DC community needs to know the truth.

Thanks so much.

Reluctant Veg-DC Listmember

11/30/2005 10:40 AM  
Anonymous Chewbecca said...

Hahahahahahah.... I'll show you. I'm writing everyone, telling them that you were banned from another list.

However, I'm so so clever!! I don't tell them it was 8 years ago or that you were asked back onto the List a few weeks later by the MODERATOR because the Listmembers thought you were right.

It's so easy. I can exaggerate all I want and you can't do anything about it. No one cares. Who cares if I blow a conversation out of proportion? Distort what you've said or written?

I can do anything I want!!!! I even told you that your posts are true, but tell others they are not!

I'm the Veg-DC List Owner... what fun!

Chewbecca Ravin

12/01/2005 12:21 PM  

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